Dealing with $cientologists

I've mentioned a few times how I feel about harassment of $cientologists and I'm still hoping to persuade more of you to my viewpoint. As an ex-scilon, I know what it feels like to be on that other side. And even that is not the main reason for feeling that that behavior should cease. It's about treating human beings as human beings. It's about wanting to help rather than hurt. Yes, I know that members of that cult have harassed people, hurt people, made threats, carried out nasty and vicious acts. I know.

Here's an excellent article by Jeff Jacobsen, one of the people responsible for getting the Lisa McPherson case the attention it deserved. He's not an ex-scilon, but he IS a long time critic and he HAS been harassed by them.

http://cultxpt.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/is-harassing-scientologists-useful/

I was also impressed by Tory's account of how kind Andreas was to her and how that opened her eyes. She was able to see that she had been lied to by her "church" and that was a turning point for her.

BTW, I'm NOT writing this because of some specific thing or person, just wanted to get a conversation going publicly.

I will do nothing more to a scientologist than he is willing to do to me, and I will support no action against one worse than what they support against me.

Aside from that, everything I've done on the street is yelling, laughing, and dancing... hardly counts as harassment. Not taking this thread as directed at me or my actions, just pointing out my own philosophy concerning this whole matter.

ANONdur wrote:

I will do nothing more to a scientologist than he is willing to do to me, and I will support no action against one worse than what they support against me.

Then we're no better than they are and isn't that part of our point?

edit: our point being that we DON'T do shit, i.e., tease, harass, etc.

For the most part, I'll pick on them a little, but I also try and treat them with dignity.

Most of my "harrassment" comes from mentioning that it's a trap to steal money, the lawsuits in France and Germany, the meds found in LRH's system, playing LRH lectures about Xenu, Daveys squirled tech, OT powers, etc.

We say/yell things to think about rather then the "OMG FUCK YOU SCIFAG LULZ LULZ LULZ" type. That's the way we all are. At least as long as I've been involved there's no real harrassment, unlike [This section was removed by a copyright claim by the Cult Of Scientology].

We aren't out there arguing that we're better than them, we're arguing that Scientology is not good. Based on that conclusion we wish to end it (in its current form, I am sure there are different scientologies that we'd have no problem with).

What's important is that we're not part of the debate.

Like I said. This is not about being evil to them, or doing things that are illegal, no matter what they do. This is about balance. Do to others what you are willing done to yourself. I dare say we're probably too nice to them, given that they are more than willing to engage in illegal and physically threatening, if not physically harmful, behavior against us. We dance outside of their "church" teasing.

I will not say sorry for that.

Thanks for that heads up, but tis so hard sometimes to get them to smile at even jokes maybe a human being can understand.

Besides that, I'm gonna try to give them some questions they might be more comfortable at asking.

They really don't like answering questions about what they are about, but its hard to form a question to not be laced with satire and sarcasm.

scarletbanner wrote:

Most of my "harrassment" comes from mentioning that it's a trap to steal money, the lawsuits in France and Germany, the meds found in LRH's system, playing LRH lectures about Xenu, Daveys squirled tech, OT powers, etc.

We say/yell things to think about rather then the "OMG FUCK YOU SCIFAG LULZ LULZ LULZ" type. That's the way we all are. At least as long as I've been involved there's no real harrassment, unlike [This section was removed by a copyright claim by the Cult Of Scientology].

I don't even know how to respond to this. Did you read what I wrote? Did you read Jeff Jacobsen's article?

Please people, there is no justification for treating $cientologists badly -- and ALL of the things mentioned above constitute treating them badly.

I do NOT get the part where you think that because you don't do the exact thing they do, that somehow you are NOT harassing them.

edit: and I truly don't get the part where you think that it's okay to heckle and harass them because they either HAVE done something to you or they MIGHT do something to you.

Here's a bit more tl;dr. Bare with me, folks.

gargy wrote:

Please people, there is no justification for treating $cientologists badly -- and ALL of the things mentioned above constitute treating them badly.

The problem with this conclusion, which is a valid conclusion to arrive at, is that we are dealing with people who have absolutely no remorse for what happens to us. What protects individual scientologists from having anything done to them? Here are the facts of who is in this 'war.'
- Scientology
- Scientology's critics

Somehow, though, this is not where it ends. It is not just scientology's critics who are targeted and talked to or talked about. In the course of this war pets, family, neighbors, and employers have all been involved. Why? Because apparently freedom of religion is far more important than freedom of speech. That is what they believe. Every single scientologist who is still a scientologist subscribes to this tenet, whether or not they say so. No matter if they are out on the streets filming us, visiting our homes fliering them, trying to run us over, or just sitting at home trying to be succesful human beings, they all believe in clearing the world. In the end, all the means that scientology, the corporation, uses to destroy us are justified because we must be destroyed (after all, we will not be cleared.)

What do we do, though? Do we kill cats? Do we flier neighbors? Not even! We show up at their org and dance, and taunt, and inform people. There is nothing wrong with any of that. It is both within our right and FAR less than what they do to us.

Quote :

I do NOT get the part where you think that because you don't do the exact thing they do, that somehow you are NOT harassing them.

It's hard to understand only because it isn't what I myself am saying. I do not think it is alright to harass in the legal sense. I will not tell people to do that, and would hate to see anonymous as a group to engage in genuine harassment. But I subscribe to any and every tactic that falls short of illegal behavior because they subscribe to any and every one of those tactics AND MORE. I have absolutely no problem harassing them if it is within what the law says what I can do. Playing OTIII, for example, is within what the law says I can do. It is, to quote a rather despicable man, fair game.

I don't condone the "scatter-shot" retribution approach. What would make sense was if there was a specific person who had done a specific thing and you wanted to hold that person's feet to the fire. But the attitude that all of them deserve to be harmed because some of them have done harm, is childish.

ANONdur, I truly hope you are never in a position where you really need someone's patience and understanding. I hope you are never trapped and need help getting out of the trap. I hope you are never injured and require someone who doesn't like you to give you a hand.
If you ever are in these circumstances, I hope, for your sake, that someone kinder than you, comes to help.
gargy

gargy wrote:

I don't even know how to respond to this. Did you read what I wrote? Did you read Jeff Jacobsen's article?

Please people, there is no justification for treating $cientologists badly -- and ALL of the things mentioned above constitute treating them badly.

I do NOT get the part where you think that because you don't do the exact thing they do, that somehow you are NOT harassing them.

edit: and I truly don't get the part where you think that it's okay to heckle and harass them because they either HAVE done something to you or they MIGHT do something to you.

Saying "DM is squirling LRH tech with Golden Age revisions", things like that when people pass to their door on the orgs side of the banners are said to get people to think, not in any way to intimidate, harrass or denigrate them. Also, we're not screaming at the top of our lungs are anything like that or go out of our way to be heard.

I'm poor at wording, possibly someone else can do a better job of describing it.

Also gargy, Dur hasn't been to a raid in awhile.

The problem with your argument, gargy, is that I'm not talking about harming people. I never have been.

Actually, playing the zenu/otiii shit IS harming them. THEY believe it will give them pneumonia and possibly kill them. i don't care if it's a completely absurd ridiculous belief, it is their belief.

We can't bend our wills because of "beliefs." It would only be a matter of time before convenient "beliefs" sprung up that would require of us more and more restraint. They choose to believe they'll get pneumonia from hearing OTIII. Unfortunately (?) for them, it is untrue and they will not get pneumonia. I harmed them no more than I harm people who are deeply offended by my political affiliation.

So...when they don't get pnumonia it plants a seed of doubt that Hubbard is wrong.

Not to mention the fact that some people do research because of it, given that the CoS is supposed to be the only ones who have the OT levels and they repeatedly say we have no clue what we're talking about...

Dur, You have been only at one raid, simply trying to toss clout around like you have any is like shooting blanks. (and not the gun kind)

gargy is really reminding us that sometimes the best way to get the people inside to doubt us is to "Kill them with Kindness" which is probably the best method to put them off balance, receiving something so unexpected from us as to whom they expect to be the very evil in which they believe we are.

THEY aren't used to what we are doing. THEY have never encountered this before. THEY have no TECH that counters this EXACTLY as Hubbard would have done because they really have no fall back system save what they know and have been taught.

Hitting them with the expected tactics is going to reinforce their ideology and already set mind-frame. The will harden their resolve, thinking that we will give up as long as they play music we don't want to hear, and all they have to do is hide behind the banners so they don't see us.

THEY know that they have no way to kick us out. All THEY can do is hunker down and weather it. Just by being there we are a disruption, but while we are being thar, we are to bring attention that maybe everything is not as it seems to be, as well as

"Hey, we wogs may not be what you expect us to be, but we can just as weird as you, as cruel, and as evil as you want us to be. But we wont, because we don't have a reason to do so. We have nothing we are staking our lives on to protect. We have nothing to loose save for our identity, in which we know you are desperately trying to figure out. We are here to show you there is a stable, although relatively different life and lifestyle outside those doors and bunker and routine you have set for yourselves to comfort you when you have no flipping idea what is going on.

Your leaders are wrong, you have the right as well as the authority and responsibility to question that, as any one does in any situation. granted you can not ask them outright, but you can search for yourself. A public library is open, use it. The internet has as many sides as you say there are, search them. We are never in anyway here to make you miserable, only to make you aware that maybe those stupid wogs outside dancing all day might have something to ay, over just trying to ignore them and HOPE they will go away"



Its not a matter of fact of proving Hubbard wrong, they can look for themselves, its just planting that seed of doubt, that one seed of hope, scrutiny, against the status qou.

Besides, can you honestly say, that after all this time, that you accomplished something outside of scientology that you would be proud of?
Did you write that book?
Did you sail that yacht you where thinking about?
Did you take a cruise with wogs and enjoy a taste of the wog world?
Did you eat in a restaurant and not in your office trying not to spill the sauce and juices all over the paper work on your desk?
Did you ever clock out for a walk over just having a smoke?
Did you ever smile for being genuinely happy rather than nervously off putting your anxiety?
Did you try doing something so mundane without the tech?

Have you ever LIVED?



Try the Wog world. It might be a little bright, but you can always adjust to it by putting sunglasses on.

CharAznable, well said.
edit to add: it is true that $cientologists do NOT enjoy life. They are NOT having any fun. ALL they DO is work for the "church". There is NOTHING else. That is very very sad.

It would be easy to make enemies out of regular scientologists, but why would we do that?
I was a "parishioner" at the San Diego org, a really good one -- my checkbook was always at the ready. I believed. Everything. Well, almost. It's those little niggly doubts that will get the scilon to walk out the door. But being yelled at? Called stupid, or worse? Having the things I believed in ridiculed? Not so much.

Anonymous (the "we're taking down $cientology") has many faces and many approaches. I can see the purpose in fucking with scilons, but I cannot see that that will help 1) get them out or 2) bring down the organization. It DOES possibly help in the effort to keep people from joining -- always a good thing.

When I was a bubblehead, I "knew" that $cientologists were better than everyone else. I "knew" that we had all the answers and we were the only ones who could save a dying planet. I "knew" these things. AND I DID NOT THINK I WAS BEING ARROGANT. I felt sorry for non-scilons. So, it's from that vantage point that I write: The rank and file $cientologist does NOT know what his "church" is doing. He is NOT the one pulling OSA shenanigans. He is NOT helping imprison children and all the other dirty deeds. He does NOT deserve to be made fun of or yelled at.

I appreciate that, for the most part, this group is interested in peaceful, fairly harmless, demonstration against the cult of scientology. My opinion is that that will serve you/us better in the long run.

Char Aznable wrote:

Dur, You have been only at one raid, simply trying to toss clout around like you have any is like shooting blanks. (and not the gun kind)

I have been at plenty raids, and know what I'm talking about. That is irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote :

gargy is really reminding us that sometimes the best way to get the people inside to doubt us is to "Kill them with Kindness" which is probably the best method to put them off balance, receiving something so unexpected from us as to whom they expect to be the very evil in which they believe we are.

If you feel this is the case, then more power to you. I will not disagree, but going from there to saying that any tactic other than killing with kindness is uncalled for and a ghastly perversion of what we should be doing is patently untrue.

Quote :

Hitting them with the expected tactics is going to reinforce their ideology and already set mind-frame. The will harden their resolve, thinking that we will give up as long as they play music we don't want to hear, and all they have to do is hide behind the banners so they don't see us.

So hit them with unexpected tactics. I don't think just going and taunting is going to do anything, but I will defend the legitimacy of doing that to the death. If it is productive in whoever's mind that is doing it, then go for it. If not, then don't do it.

Quote :

THEY know that they have no way to kick us out. All THEY can do is hunker down and weather it. Just by being there we are a disruption, but while we are being thar, we are to bring attention that maybe everything is not as it seems to be

What anonagi said holds. What happens when they DON'T get pneumonia from our playing OTIII? Is that what they expected? No. Is it a harsh thing to do to them? Maybe. Did I verbally or physically harass them as defined by the law? I doubt it, and I am counting on that not being the case. The day that changes, I'll stop doing it.

Quote :

Your leaders are wrong, you have the right as well as the authority and responsibility to question that, as any one does in any situation. granted you can not ask them outright, but you can search for yourself. A public library is open, use it. The internet has as many sides as you say there are, search them.

You mean like looking up OTIII? They may never do that unless they realize that they will not die from looking it up. In that way we may be doing them a service, unless they are unwilling to think for themselves. In that case, just telling them to look it up will do very little.

gargy wrote:

When I was a bubblehead, I "knew" that $cientologists were better than everyone else. I "knew" that we had all the answers and we were the only ones who could save a dying planet. I "knew" these things. AND I DID NOT THINK I WAS BEING ARROGANT. I felt sorry for non-scilons. So, it's from that vantage point that I write: The rank and file $cientologist does NOT know what his "church" is doing. He is NOT the one pulling OSA shenanigans. He is NOT helping imprison children and all the other dirty deeds. He does NOT deserve to be made fun of or yelled at.

I understand what you're saying. I know that not every individual is personally responsible for the actions of the church. I do believe, however, that every individual scientologist is involved in this struggle as they are exactly part of who we are targetting our message at. My mother and father? My neighbors? My poor cat? Not so much.

This isn't about revenge. This is about realistically looking at what tactics are available to us and using all that are appropriate for the purpose of bringing down the church.